Chorus vs Chorus Delay

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bbheli
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:09 pm

Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by bbheli » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:29 pm

Hello Hope all are well.

I was reading an article on another site that made me take away two things. 1) The Chorus is newer than the Chorus/Delay, 2) That it came out with the Echo.

I am interested in what people have to say about that and curious if the echo is intended to be used with the older Chorus/Delay and if so what differences may be noted either way.

Happy Holidays

Brett

Sunburst
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by Sunburst » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:36 pm

Brett,

Great question!

The chorus parameters on the Stereo Chorus/Delay and Stereo Chorus are the same. However, the Stereo Chorus/Delay uses one MN3005 chip as opposed to two MN3007 chips in the Stereo Chorus. The MN3005 is also famously used in the MXR M117 Flanger and other vintage pedals and some people prefer it. I can't really tell the difference for chorus (although I can tell the difference between a vintage and new MXR flanger!). The one advantage to the Stereo Chorus is that all of the parameters are foot-switchable, including the LONG CHORUS and SWEEP STOP. The Stereo Echo uses both MN3005 and MN3007 chips (for up to 500 ms of delay).

You can use all three modules together. However, since both the Stereo Chorus/Delay and Stereo Chorus are MONO IN/STEREO OUT, you can't maintain the stereo field with all three. One method is to use the Stereo Chorus/Delay as a MONO, short, reverb-like delay or slap-back delay (up to 200 ms) MONO into the Stereo Chorus and then STEREO OUT into the Stereo Echo. But if you're going to do this, why not use two Stereo Echoes to maintain the stereo field (plus 250-300 ms is better for reverb)?

Hope that helps!

Very respectfully,

Sunburst

RockmanCentralBob
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by RockmanCentralBob » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:47 pm

Great reply Sunburst...
Sunburst wrote:The chorus parameters on the Stereo Chorus/Delay and Stereo Chorus are the same. However, the Stereo Chorus/Delay uses one MN3005 chip as opposed to two MN3007 chips in the Stereo Chorus. ... The one advantage to the Stereo Chorus is that all of the parameters are foot-switchable, including the LONG CHORUS and SWEEP STOP.
One thing about why the Long Chorus isn't foot Switchable on the Chorus/Delay is because, as Sunburst noted, it only has the one Delay IC. When you turn on/off the Long Chorus, you can hear a "swoosh" as the timing IC changes speed. The Stereo Chorus module solved this by adding the extra Delay IC and simply changes the tap point before/after that extra IC to change the Chorus Depth.
Sunburst wrote: But if you're going to do this, why not use two Stereo Echoes to maintain the stereo field (plus 250-300 ms is better for reverb)?
Two reasons:
1) Stereo Echo's are pretty expensive.
2) I tried this, and the timing signal from the first unit carried into the second unit and messed it up, even when bypassed. Maybe my units needed new filter caps or something, but I couldn't make it work. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has made it work though.

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rbc
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Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by rbc » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:30 am

bbheli wrote:I am interested in what people have to say about that and curious if the echo is intended to be used with the older Chorus/Delay and if so what differences may be noted either way.
Hi Brett, I'll approach the question a different way, because I want to highlight what I think is cool about the Stereo Echo. The Chorus/Delay delay circuit is more like a traditional stomp box delay. The Stereo Echo is more like two delays packaged in one effect. I think the Stereo Echo was mostly intended to be used after a stereo chorus, though it certainly doesn't have to be.

The Stereo Echo delay circuits are packaged with circuitry to maintain a 3/5ths delay relationship between the two delay circuits. There is also a built in mixer with a few different mix options.

To get the same kinds of effects with the Chorus/Delay, you would need two of them and an outboard mixer to mix the results. There would also be a lot more fidgeting to match the delay time relationship between the two units and set up the desired mix on the outboard mixer. With the stereo echo, most of that work is already done.

My guess is that using the Stereo Echo with the Chorus/Delay in chorus mode would work just fine. I think the Stereo Echo would probably work OK with other non-Rockman stereo chorus units as well. Using the Chorus/Delay delay mode in front of the Stereo Echo sounds like it would be really interesting. I don't have a Stereo Echo to try it with though. Has any one else tried that?

That's my spin. Thanks for asking!
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Sunburst
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Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by Sunburst » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:33 am

Bob,

Great points! In my studio Sustainor setup, I use one Stereo Echo for long delay (500 ms at a higher volume) and the other for reverb (250-300 ms at a lower volume). I generally don't use them together for the reasons you mentioned. I don't use two in an XPR setup since the reverb on the XPR is adequate (although I generally don't use the delay because it's too short and noisy).

Bruce,

The delays on both the Stereo Chorus/Delay and Stereo Echo are set at a 3:5 ratio. But 200ms is so short that it's nothing more than a slap-back. I have used them together and it works no problem. I had the Dave Accomando setup (Stereo Chorus/Delay MONO OUT to Stereo Chorus STEREO OUT to Stereo Echo) for a long time until I finally decided to swap out the Stereo Chorus/Delay for a second Stereo Echo. Much better although I have considered adding a stereo spring reverb instead.

Very respectfully,

Sunburst

RockmanCentralBob
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by RockmanCentralBob » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:51 pm

Sunburst wrote:In my studio Sustainor setup, I use one Stereo Echo for long delay (500 ms at a higher volume) and the other for reverb (250-300 ms at a lower volume). I generally don't use them together for the reasons you mentioned.
So are you saying you were able to daisy chain them together, one Echo after the other, and switch between them?
I wasn't able to get that to work, though it looks like Tom has his setup like that.

bbheli
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Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by bbheli » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:10 pm

Thank you all for the helpful answers and great information. While I don't understand it all 100% as I am new to this stuff, I get the basic idea of what your saying. I seem to have a sound tone that I am not happy with compared to things i have heard in various sound files posed here, elsewhere and youtube. To track it down I am eliminating component by component and researching each one.

My setup on rig number one is as follows
>Rockman EQ Right >
Dual IC Sustainor >Stereo Chorus Delay> Stereo Echo> PMG 175 Amp > Left and Right Full Range Speaker Cabs
>Rockman EQ Left >

Clean and Clean 2 is ok but can't get past 95-99 Db in sound level at 2' away with amp dimed as well as guitar, and EQ sliders full up. Without EQ right before amp volume level even lower. Expected that this would be at neighbors call the police levels with amps even half way up. When switching to edge or distortion the sound is goes from muffled swiss cheese to really muddy garbage. Nothing like some of the ranges I heard from demo's of others rigs.

The speakers are full range replicas with a 15" 10" and a horn style tweeter and crossover.

My assumption was perhaps the Echo was not intended to be used with the Chorus/Delay from what I read. So now I am back to square one :|

Thoughts , comments, suggestions, appreciated by this newbie

RockmanCentralBob
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by RockmanCentralBob » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:30 pm

Try this:
Dual IC Sustainor> Rockman EQ> Stereo Chorus Delay> Stereo Echo> PMG 175 Amp > Left and Right Full Range Speaker Cabs

Once you have this sounding OK, then you can try adding a Pre-Distortion Loop EQ:
From Sustainor "Send" to EQ Input and from EQ Output to Sustainor "All Return".

Sunburst
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Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by Sunburst » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:02 am

Bob,

Reference the dual Stereo Echoes, I just bypass one while using the other (no need for "reverb" with long delay). I have played around with two on at the same time and it worked OK with the long delay first in the chain at a higher volume and reverb second in the chain at a lower volume. Two long delays together at a high volume not so much!

Brett.

Bob's signal route is the standard I (and I assume most people) use. Some possible explanations for your problems:

1. Inop module and/or power amp (Thanks, Captain Obvious!).

2. Bad cable or cables (all it takes is one in the chain!).

3. No Ebtech Live Level Shifter (to keep the volume at a professional level).

4. Input level of Stereo Chorus/Delay, Stereo Chorus, and/or Stereo Echo set too high causing clipping (I keep all of mine at the lowest setting on -6 db).

5. Impedance mismatch between Stereo Chorus/Delay, Stereo Chorus, and/or Stereo Echo. The earlier Stereo Choruses and Stereo Echoes (generally below serial numbers 4,000) have an impedance issue that was later corrected.

When I have a problem like yours and have no idea what is causing it in the chain, I test each module individually. It can be a time consuming process with a full setup but it's really the only way. So test the Sustainor first, then add the post EQ, then add the Stereo Chorus/Delay or Stereo Chorus, then add the Stereo Echo, etc., etc., etc.

Good luck!

Very respectfully,

Sunburst

RockmanCentralBob
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Chorus vs Chorus Delay

Post by RockmanCentralBob » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:45 pm

Thanks Sunburst.... I'm pretty sure that's how I had my Echo's set up (though maybe I had the first one set up as reverb?) and even bypassing one or the other, couldn't make it work. I'll have to try again because it did sound great using one for a short reverb.